In the last two days i received about six text messages requesting me to a) take part in the anti reservation protest happening in chennai, and more importantly b) giving these protesters some coverage in the paper.
I studiously ignored them all, until today i was so annoyed i replied 'i dont believe in it'. To which the prompt reply was, 'lets debate later, now forward the msg to all your friends'
Do people stop to think these days?
Anyways, reservation itself is such a complex subject that i dont want to give an opinion in either direction. I am confused about it.
I mean, the basis of reservation is sound - SC STs are not given the same facilities and opportunities to be up there with the higher castes and classes, so they cant compete on the same platform for a place in a top class institution. Fair enough. A meritocracy is potentially disastrous, because it will ensure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, only the wealth here is knowledge and education - which probably would lead to the more popular form of wealth in the end anyway.
But two points against reservation:
1) To (inaccurately) quote Remember the Titans, [a fine fine movie, with Denzel Washington at his absolute best] to give a helping hand to the marginalised people is only to make them dependant on that support, and cripple them in the process.
2) I blv i was a victim of reservation myself, because at Loyola, in Literature, at least 90 per cent of the people got in through reservation. I got in on the remaining ten per cent you say, so why should i complain. well, the standard of students was atrocious, and the professors, who were already a bit shaky in terms of quality, were an unenthusiastic disillusioned bunch, cos whats the point of speaking about the intricacy of the imagery in John Donne's poetry if most of the class spells it Jon Dun?
So thats the reason for my confusion. So when people ask me, I just say I don't have an opinion on reservation.
But what I do have an opinion on, and have a problem with, is the way this country has reacted to the issue. Why are students protesting so vociferously against reservation? If you notice, very few of the people who protest are actually affected by it. One person who texted me is in IT quite happily drawing a 20K plus salary, another is a student of lit, a third passed out of college and considering going abroad etc.
Why are these people marching the streets?
I mean there is so much injustice in the country, why suddenly does everybody start shouting and yelling now?
Maybe cos suddenly as a caste, as a class, we feel threatened? Is it revolution-phobia, the insecurity that these farmers' brats might actually crawl out of their paddy fields and come and take our jobs next?
Thats my theory anyway, and it would deserve this entire cross section bloody well right if the government goes on and implements it anyway.
Which would make it seem that i'm pro-govt. on the the issue. I'm not. Sriram put it better than i can at sramz.blogspot.com... and if you scroll down on his blog somewhere, you have this quote - "Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other."
Reservation simply does not follow this maxim. It benefits the poor but not the rich. The balance is not there. The govt. has screwed up here, they havent been their usual slimy selves - its plain for everyone to see that they basically couldnt care less as long as they get those votes from the vast poverty stricken majority. They've messed up as far as appeasing the rich is concerned.
They've shown their true colours.
I couldn't be more delighted.
65 comments:
Thanks for dropping by man.
In the context of reservations it may be worth visiting this blog.
Personally as far as TN is concerned I'm all ready for reservations...reservations for FC that is! Think about it....there is reservations for minority groups, SC/ST's and then you have management quotas and at the end of it we are fighting for only something like 30%-20% of the total seats....we need reservation too na??? :D
visit mine too... i know YOU did, but ... hope u dont mind me capitalizing on your mass of followers..
anyway, the loyola thing is happening to me as well... more important than them not spelling or understanding is the fact that they dont give a rats ass.. they jus came there for the degrees.. they'd'v accepted whichever course they'dv gotten into..
interestingly,
"unlike other institutions, many staff employed by BARC come from some of the poorest and most backward parts of India. The BARC workforce is a strong indicator that India's scientific expertise is not just restricted to the cities and to its elite academic institutions. SP Garg is the BARC's Associate Director of Knowledge Management and says there is too much talent in the country to be absorbed by elite institutions alone. In 2005, of the 10,028 science and engineering graduates who applied to BARC only 382 candidates were accepted. BARC gets most of its trainees from small towns and some of its best engineers hail from Bihar, one of India's poorest states. applicants to BARC cannot speak English, so
interviews are conducted in regional languages such as Hindi and Gujarati."
The problem with reservation is that a lot students who have no aptitude for certain streams get into it and struggle through it without any interest. I think reservation is specially dangerous when it comes to subjects like medicine where the students would be handling the lives of many people in the future. So if they have neither aptitude nor interest in medicine and only get in through virtue of their caste, well, the next generation is going to put their lives to risk by even going to a doctor!
reservation is a neccessity but increasing the percentage to such drastic levels is quite a shocker since after all, the demand is not to reduce reservation per say, but to increase the quality of education lower down and make it more attainable. I think that should be primary focus rather than blindly increasing a reservation figure without much concern for states like TN as reflextions put it. Our biggest University Anna University at one point of time had a 2% quota for FC, that is a ridiculous figure! there was a suggestion to have a state wise acceptance limit, that may make more sense temporarily, but definitely the root of inadequate education facilities must be handled.
Now here's something I ABSOLUTELY have to comment on. I mean in your own words, "The govt. has screwed up here". I'm not one of those rebels who is waltzing down the streets screaming anti-reservation slogans, nor am i entirely supportive of this system! Truly, I'd know. Considering all the trouble i'm going through to get a decent course in college!!Nothing personal,but all these SCs, STs and MBCs seems to bagging most of the seats and what remains is usually filled in by "quota" students( who are those lucky freaks who get in through sports/NCC or string pulling)....Marks really have stopped mattering these days...Even MOP has a cut off of just 70% these days...
I'm entirely pissed with myself and the government....
College admission for non-professional courses is as much of hell as you can get!!!!!
damn the government!!
Brilliant writing as usual Abhinav!!!!
Here's sumthin id like to see people making a difference in!!!! :S
I love the sue of your language....fantastic!
Abhinav
I am very clear about this issue. Reservation must not exist. It is like this: as long as the word exists, the thought that there is a chasm remains. It's like the word gender. These ppl need such precepts and concepts to keep the insecurity in the minds of people. Because, without inferior people some can't survive as most people are either social climbers or parasites that breed on others. And without inferior people they would feel inferior. So they persis with the word reservations and divisions of people into caste and creed. Let's just remove these words and concepts from people's minds and give everyone a dog-eat-dog survival scenario. The strong shall survive, whether economically backward or not. That is the basis of a capitalist society, ain't it? There can be no such thing as a socialist federal capitalist secular democracy as we follow in India. You're either socialist or capitalist, you're either federal or central, you're either secular and hence non-denominational or religious and right/fundamental. We are confused country that thrives on divisive politics. The word reservation must go. The word Religion, Caste, Gender must go from application forms. Other forms of codifying people's existence through census must come.
Nice piece of writing, but here's my take on it anyways..
sixty years into an independent nation, it is but imperative to take stock of how the country has coped with various factors. Having given reservation to those who are categorised as lower castes has undoubtedly liberated them. Unfortunately, these people who were altogether economically challenged and were oblivious to the world outside aerlier, have done well for themselves and a majority if them aren't economically backward anymore. Which boils down to the fact that as we progress, the reservation given to people should come down eventually owing to better standards of living and better exposure and opportunities, and not increase on the contrary. And that too demanding reservation for institutions that have carved out a niche for themselves, despite the commercialisation of something as sacred as education, simply becasue they believed in meritocracy is taking the issue a little too far. I dont believe that reservation should be abolished..not right now at least..but not increasing it would suit everybody fine.
sorry for the long comment..
Clear thinking Divya. I find your views on the problem really sensible.
Well done!
reflextion,
right back at u, buddy...
er... that was some very pretty poetry in that link, but the connection would be?
anyways, reservations for FC - no way, not now that i've done with my higher education - let the others sufferrrrrrrrrrr
eternal flunky,
couple of things - loyola sucks ass as far as reservation is concerned. to be honest, i did pull a few strings.. and then when i got in, i was topping effortlessly. MA is much better tho.
as for BARC - good point. there are some exceptions. Hyundai for example did use skilled and unskilled labour from the poorer regions in the southern parts of Tamil Nadu which gave them a cost advantage and a healthy responsible image. but these are exceptions.
jan,
i dont think you need to worry too much. if people are disinterested and lethargic in medicine, itll take them 12 13 years to complete the course if they arent thrown out first. its a seriously competitive field, as one of my friends never hesitates to remind me. but i understand what you're saying, it does affect the quality of the country's workforce.
yogi,
yay, new commenter! thanks for dropping by man...
yes absolutely - the real problem is at the grassroots - the schools. the corporation schools are absolutely terrible, and a school like sankara vidyalaya is charging 6000 a year, so the lowest strata of school education is unaffordable to many.
i'm sure the govt. is aware of all this - but compare the cost of setting up good school institutions and sending a letter out to all the colleges saying 20 per cent reservation or whatever.
but you're right, 2 per cent is atrocious. actually i didnt know it was that bad.
azlan queen,
personally, i'm delighted that marks dont count anymore. examinations are an absolute rubbish system of finding out how talented or capable a student is. the only problem is, there's no alternative, unless you get one machine that counts the number of grey cells in your brain.
actually, i dont think it really matters which college you get into either. anyways once you get into the working world, you find you have to unlearn everything you learnt in college.
and im not just talking about literature and vis com. industry leaders say that 70 per cent of MBA graduates in india are unemployable. interesting huh?
and thanks for the compliment! really, you are very very good for my ego.
kk,
hang on, i'm gonna spit on my hands and open a new comment box for this one:
Divya,
did you came back as anonymous and typed the following comment? lol.. just kidding.
no but seriously, thats a good point... reservation should technically fade away as the opportunities equalise.
"something as sacred as education"
don't you believe it girl, education is one of the biggest businesses today, its an absolute goldmine.
if any of these private institions claim that theyre in education because its sacred, bonk the lying bastard on the head and keep moving.
Anonymous,
All compliments here should be directed towards me and me alone! Just kidding, divya's the babe!
totally agree with divya nair... precisely the point i was attempting to drive home myself in MY POST ON THE SAME ISSUE :)
ABBHU!!!!!
@abhinav
how dare you make such baseless allegations!! i'm am shocked and plunged in grief!! sniff...
but on a serious note, well i'm highly appalled at how people have turned education into the most lucrative profession...
@anon
thank you :)) oh and you are the same anon person who's commented on my blog as well...
OOps sorry that was ment to link to Confused's blog...can't find that link now....anyway...I came across the transcript from Karan Thappar's interview.....it was hilarious!!!!
LInk: http://www.ibnlive.com/news/decision-on-quota-is-final-arjun/11063-4-single.html
The guy seriously has no freakin' clue how they got those percentages and figures....he made quite an ass of himself I must say!
eternal flunky,
er... sorry man maybe i didn't go through the finer points of your post... it was the poetry, the stuning poetry of thomas gray that distracted me. honest!
divya,
yes it is... but the uproar over the reservation issue proves how much this nation sets by education... so naturally thats where the money is. i bet you and i could make pots of money starting an institute for teaching english or something.
reflextion,
that was a great link. the man just weaved ropes around arjun-ji...
everyone, that link makes for great reading - do check it out.
kk,
i deleted my comment in reply to yours... it was slightly overboard. in case you read it already, my apologies!
hey..english teaching institute sounds interesting :) i think i'l quit college and start teaching english coupled with some basics on report writing....nice nice..i am liking it muchly :))
Abhinav,
On one front I couldn't agree with you more, on the other can't agree with you much at all. And before that, I am just passing out of Lit (UG) from Loyola this year and I totally subscribe to whatever you say about the quality of literature there. The pathos is this dept of English is regarded the best by "ratings" another R word I do not believe in at all.
As regards Reservation, let me start where I disagree with you. I do not think one should feel sad about the "cream" actually protesting over these issues. In fact, that's what we want, more people from the mainstream taking the gauntlet, ensuring something happens. The problem maybe with the "interest" factor (read as vested) and if there's anything of that sort, then it needs to be condemned. Reg those who messaged you - oh, yes I got a few too plus silly jokes - I think you are right: they are just making being protestant fashionable. That's terribly unfortunate.
But I agree with you - when you supplement in with Sriram's quote - that from the top if you look, the whole thing is vb politics stuff (vote bank, nothing else). Yet again as you say I myself have not been able to be clear over this storm: they say seats will be increased for the interest of the students in the general category, but the point is that the 27 per cent - correct me if I am wrong - is going to be out, not out of the present number, but the total seats after the constitutional amendment later this year. On the whole I believe R as in Reservation was brought into our constitution by a very sagacious Drafting committee fifty six years ago to ensure, as you put it, an even platform for those oppressed for years. Yet does that mean the oppressed can become the oppressors? Clearly... no. One more thing we are forgetting here: there are by-passers to everything. How can one be sure that everyone who certifies himself to belong to a particular group - sorry I do not like the word caste - is carrying clean paperwork? I guess we all know of cases of papers being finessed to suit the purpose of the hour, in which case the R factor is only a trickle down factor for typical first-generation people of the groups for whom it's intended. There's another ridiculous offshoot, though I am sure implementing it would be a lot more complex: there have been people belonging to those sections of populace in questions who over the years through the quota systems and their own efforts have been relieved from their former misery, yet political groups canvass for the fact that they should continue to be in the cover of the quota systems?
Eventually as you said we are back on square one, one feels. Nice blog by the way and shall try to be more frequent.And also, I like your little aphorisms for each blogger out here.
As for my views sorry if they sound too strong, but they are just 'my' opinions.
Abhinav:
am miffed, disappointed and frustratedly piqued and curiouser as to what they were (the comments I mean!). listen, seriously, you must let them in back. because that was what you really felt at the moment. and that is the gist of education. to be honest to each other in thought and deed on the face. anyway, it's past. but i'll let you in on an observed secret. you will never get 100 hits or 50+ hits everytime like someone I know does if you replied to comments to posts like this. this is the same trick, that I am going to let you on, that samanth practises too. all bloggers who see sense in improving their hit statistics do. i don't care for statistics personally. but this is the secret. you reply to every individual comment individually. you've clubbed 4 or 5 responses in one... which in a way is spitting in hand and opening a box too! llllong! so, get wise young man.
@divya:
that first comment which got quite a following was indeed lucid to say the least. i guess you really put it in perspective.
back atcha abhinav:
you probably were incensed by my views on reservation and thought i am partisan, biased and warped or whatever, but let me let you in on some of the things i have seen and experienced. if you're anyway of iit or iim calibre you can talk and intellectualise whateva about playing peter. those who don't have stakes like the robin hoods of the world or those who have innate talent or natural born abilities can afford to rob peter to pay paul, as the saying goes. but it is the not so natural (my example is Ivan Lendl - he really had to work against talented McEnroes and Pat Cashes of the world to carve history as he did!) who has more in stake. Especially when you are victimised because you belong to a caste or section against whom reservation works. I ask all: an economically deprived person from an economically deprived or backward section of society deserves encouragement like they give handicap in golf for starters against pros! but do you seriously think getting low grades is a question of economic deprivation? if so are the SCs/STs/MBCs etc the only economically deprived? Economic deprivaton and Caste have nothing anymore to go with each other. They have become mutually exclusive. I have actually seen people exploiting and manipulating reservation by deliberatly throwing money and convert themselves from one section to another because they 1) have money 2) unscrupulously approach conversion 3) are willing to renounce what they stand for by birth for material gains 4) don't bother to get anything more than low marks because they know they can manipulate reservation policy 5) waste their comparitive prosperity to abusive ways of partying in the secure knowledge their money or muscle-pulling father can clinch the issue for them,
and these are the people who deliberately become engineers or doctors or whoever purely because they can earn more. in fact they make it sound somehow politically correct by saying "i have invested 10 lakhs by way of fees and other payments" and they need to resort to exploit and overcharge and indiscriminately brokerage tenders and use cheap materials at work to get back "my parents' hard-earned money those snivelling bastards took as brokerage charges to fix my seat in college!" Think... why would not people go to the length of self-immolation bid in Delhi?
Anyway, well... if for reasons relating to the post topic you got nasty with me, then it's ok. But if for other reasons... I would love to hear in an email or something. If it's about my theatre, much better, am starting to lick my chops as they say! LOL!
Good Knob!
@kk
thank you :) and i must say you give very intelligent, well thought of comments...
srini,
do you honestly believe it is the duty of the cream of society to take up issues of injustice in the state?
i do too. opening batsman of yesteryear vijay merchant felt the same - he gave the analogy of a frontline batsman protecting the tail enders from fast bowlers in the opposition. fair enough
so why were the cream of society sitting on their ass when the narmada issue happened? were there any processions in chennai? what happened (and i keep coming back to this) when farmers were committing suicides in hyderabad? did u watch in tv and go, oh how sad, and then switched to orange county or one tree hill?
dont talk to me about us taking up the cudgels for injustice - we only protest when we are affected.
as for reservation, your views are sound, and like i said, i am not saying reservation is right. im only saying that that all of us making a huge fuss over injustice is plain hypocricy.
divya,
anytime you want to start... just say the word.
kk,
since youa re so kind i will reiterate my views on what you said earlier.
'survival of the fittest' which you advocate so strongly sounds very cool. in the jungle, where the prey and the animals of prey have reached an equilibrium, go by the maxim of survival beautifully.
is it applicable in human society? no. in human society there is no equilibrium, family conglomerates get richer and richer and the poor get poorer and poorer.
i gave the example of rotational starving in rajasthan - a family of four takes turns to eat, because there's only enough food for one person one meal a day. the person who eats then goes and works in the field because the rest have no energy, having starved. the next day, the second person eats and goes and works in the field.
how do you expect this family to come up through your maxim of survival of the fittest?
Abhinav,
The point is those who feel injustice will raise their voices wherever there's a danger of iniquity. Let's leave it at that. By the way the poem below this was very cool. I particularly loved the last line and oftentimes that to me is the true litmus test of a poetic mind? How you churn out the last line! Though a bit of a poet myself, I think long and hard before concluding poems and even there have been poems where after half a dozen alterants to the original concluding line, I still feel dissatisfied. Do visit my blog, when you find time.
Cheerio
Boss - we have discussed this before but I want to know what the rest think of it. Reservations have actually brought the best out of those who think they are the victims. I mean, if you need to get 95 per cent in 12th std to be even 'considered' for engineering, you know you are screwed if you don't. So you work your butt off. That's at the micro level. But even the larger picture confirms the view, doesn't it? I mean, those 'victims' of reservation have actually gone onto better things because they fought hard for what they wanted. Irrespective of whichever field they entered, they seem to have done well. A look at all those real estate investments by the so-called 'forward caste' is evidence of their survival instincts. Sure, we can always argue that they could have had it easier. But considering that there are few options, especially in TN, it's good to view the end-result. Or am I alone in my view?
Abhinav,
This comment is intended for Bharat.
Bharat,
It's good to see yet another interesting dimension added to what is unfortunately not just a searing debate. While I can say you are not alone vis-a-vis your view, one must understand that just because you have to galvanise lazy people we cannot bring in an unfair contextual foray. I support you to the extent that the R factor has done a lot of good - especially in TN as you put it - but is that a natural consequence or something which was an obviously aniticipated end to Reservations? Well, if that's the case you can do it in so many ways: provide 95 in any case as a cut off.
There's another factor, too. Are we sure that all top brass colleges - apart from those which come under the direct umbrella of Anna Varsity - take in only 95s? There are quotas there, too. Oh, everywhere there is quota! Single Window System is just for the papework one feels. That is why I am defiant of reservation, too: are we sure that the benefits pour to these discriminated members? Most of their seats aren't even filled up and do you want to increase seats in the unfilled category or provide seats for those who can finesse paperwork? I know there can be a thousand counterpoints to this and I am ready to listen to each one of them, but reservations make more victims than victors on either side of the divide? Aren't we letting those blessed by these Reservations complacent? Well, these are queries that do not have answers, one feels.
But for your view upon the coincidental outcome of Reservations in TN, I am with you in staunch support. Even then, I do not belong to an era of people who feel that cut-offs are the be-all and end-all of things!
Abhinav
I grew up in almost a "one eats one square or not meal" rota system and had to go through a lot of shit to get where i am today. I tell you... it is fine arbitration from you to say these ppl should be protected and given quota as against the survival of the fittest. But at that level they're not thinking of education. put them in school, they won't even attend. One in a million families in a country like india and in a situation like that extremity would do that. Others simply want a living first. Remember... education or literacy begins only after food. It is the corollary of what Valluvar said. When the stomach is full, literacy would start. He said "Sevikku siridhu unavu illaadha pozhudu (When there is no food for the ears), Vayittrukkum siridhu iyya (the i to be read as ee) padum (something shall be offered for the stomach". That man lived in age of pre-corporate monarchy where poets and artists were revered. I have suffered in the half a glass of milk for 8 in the family to drink coffee, make buttermilk for food system. I know. And 5 of us in our famiy came through this system and we fought through. As Srini says, raise the bar of meritocracy to push people fight. Not bring in arbitrary measures and justify them as reservation to help people who could exploit it.
Bharat, I agree with you regarding the victims fighting better with backs to the walls. But like Srini said you don't have to throw them in a shark-infested sea when they can learn swimming in a pool. And not even a rubber life-support! Your reservation policy is taking away life-breath from one section of the society to feed sharks... not even people who deserve handicap.
Abhinav... do you remember the Monty Python piece "When we were poor"... it's a brilliant piece of satire. But when read in this light, it becomes epiphanic and apocalyptic... "When we were poor, we used to live...all 150 of us... on a septic tank... etc etc" each of them trying to one up on each other. Rajasthan story is like that. Bad example... the Vijay Merchant too. I mean, it is not the job of openers to protect tail enders because one is batsman and other is batsman. Like Clive Lloyd said when Holding or Roberts or someone won a match for them with bat, he was unhappy. Because his job was to bowl Windies to victory and not bat them to victory. You may say, what if batsmen fail? Well, extending your metaphor... are we preparing these ppl to bat so that when the cream of literate society fails, these would save the team? This is no team game. It is come-uppance and oneupmanship within the team situation here. There is no team. Ppl have crept up to power so that they could provide opportunities for the so-called oppressed and socially neglected once-upon-a-village scenario to ill-treat back those who allegedly mis-treated them back in them pre-independence days. They are not asking opportunity for the deservedly reserved, but to fight a stupid and petty feud which will not see India go global genuinely. And as long as backboneless paappans and pillais and others keep running away as they did in the 80s when they smelt this and keep doing even now rather than write their UPSCs to get into the govt. cadres, there is no hope for the then-oppressive now-oppressed anti-reservationists. The root of the problem is there is a tribe of our forbears who betrayed us by running away to US and other western countries to save their backs and now others are suffering because these govt positions need to be filled and those who are not meritorioulsy credenced have filled these slots in admin, judiciary and other depts when they don't have the literacy to do so!
That line should read, one is batsman and other is a bowler.
Any form of reservation must be opposed. Handicap should be given differently. Not saying economically deprived must be given 70 percent for admission, by and large economically believed to be forward must be made to get 95 percent is stupid. Both of them have the same electrification or absence of it problem. Both have to study the same subject. There is not much of a difference in conditions. First of all... I am sure you would agree as a KFI-an... the word competition must be abolished. People should be educated about the need to excel for their own and the sake of the country's growth and not to beat each other to positions. One should work for the sake of work and learn to value things equally rather than placing emphasis on one and ignoring another. If our forbears did that supposedly in the agraharams, these people doing it in the name of Mandal and others at the portals of parliament. Only the venue has changed. We must stop competing in the first place.
@kk
whatever little our country has achieved is solely due to competetion beacuse lets face it, we're a bunch of complacent fools who're stuck in a mindset of limited achievements. if there isn't going to be any competetion, i'm even scraed to think about where we're gonna end up....
Abhinav,
Another comment for someone else, based on the discussion. Sorry about that.
Divya Nair,
I think - and feel happy - that you are strongly opinionated in what you have said in response to KK. But I beg to disagree with you. It is not competition that actually makes achievers, it's an inner drive. You keep competing, yes with yourself, not with others. Every year between the month of May and August we see the aftereffects of competition: on the obvious side of the newspapers, you have the gliterrati posing for photographs, their names engraved on the pinnacles of glory. At the other end, we have people committing suicide because they cannot stand the cruelty of a competitive society.
I am sorry, I may sound anachronistic when I say that a Rat race is a stampede where the minority survive. Yet is that civilisation? An equal playing field is one where people of multifarious ability must be given an opportunity to be successful. One needs choice; you cannot impose the duffel bags of scope on everyone. Coming to your point about laziness, I think it's highly subjective and I do not think we are lazy as we are made out to be. As for the complacency part, there is this myth that feeling satisfied is false? What's wrong! It's to reach satisfaction we learn, earn and settle don't we. And when we find a person complacent with his everyday's work, we say he's lazy, complacent hence a failure in the "competitive" world. The world sets so many definitions; western cliches are what are getting globalised. If to be successful is to be successful by someone else's standards, I am afraid we are only fooling ourselves into an apocalyptic submission.
first of all, this is getting super heated and exciting.
i like, i like.
@srini,
thanks man... i'm glad you liked it. i havent written poetry in a long time, but i used to on a regular basis... now and then i'mn struck down with the fervour and ill suddenly jump out of bed at three in the morning, turn on the light, peer about squint-eyed for a spare piece of paper.
glad you liked it.
and i will kindly not respond to the comments you made to others :)
@bharat,
good point yaar - since we're talking about the downtrodden coming up the hard way, i thought that was a great input which, as srini put it, added another dimension to the argument.
@kk
i think you're taking the cricket analogy a bit too far man.. it was just a vague analogy coming from vijay merchant, a simple man who just spent the latter half of his retired life setting up various charities and helping people out to the best of his ability.
as for competition... i dont know. reading harry potter was actually a bit of a shock, because she celebrates competition so much... and i actually felt a bit of wistfulness.. when i play tennis, i love the competitive atmosphere.. i do blv in healthy competition, about being gracious in victory and defeat.. its a learning process. so i disagree with KFI on that one.. sorry if i went off on a tangent.
@divya and KK
On the other hand, i know what you mean, kk, its sometimes borders on obscene, how competitive this nation is to get into IIMs and IITs and the suicides and all that shit.
divya - you're right, but, as a kfi student i have to say - it can be liberating to not have competition.. you choose your own paths, and you set your own goals. it actually IS pretty cool.
see i've contradicted myself left right and centre heh.
oh and kk, thanks for the tip about seperate comment boxes for each reply to a commenter... i was doing that, but then i found that everytime someone said 'wow you've got 75 comments', i felt compelled to explain that half of them were mine. so then i realised there's no point.
@srini
everything needs to be in balance...i'm not saying you should take competitons to level that they actually lead to suicide. all i'm saying it, it urges people to do their best.
and with regards to complacency i still believe that we're too complacent a lot...we dont aspire to do better..which explains why we're content with a country that's almost a garbage dump in itself..cows on the road and a lot more...i'm not getting started on that one..
@abhinav
letting someone do what they're good at and what they believe in is different from pushing them to be competitive. because at the end of the day, whichever field you land up, whether by design or otherwise, you're gonna be up against some deadly competition
Divya Nair,
Better put this time, I guess. With regard to complacency though I do not back off. As regards the angle of complacency you have suggested however - a national phenomenon and not individual - I am to comply with you in the sense that our interests are highly parochial. Anyway, I am not starting on that either. Your opinions are one-pronged and I appreciate that an awful lot.
Godspeed!
@srini
thank you :) that's all i can say...
@ all involved in the frying pan...
um... ahem... well... generation gap! wavelength difference! i have suffered, climbed to be where i am, never was pampered... had to work hard for everything... even now have to work hard when there are others who get it relatively easy... never thought of competing... was an average student not worth the B.Scs in college... making the best of what I got... and I am! So I still believe that pushing our kids to get competitive to be like others in the name of prosperity and economic climbing is like buying things because others have one and we should as well to be on equal footing. We must seek what we need more than what the world has. And what we need is settling down. That is not complacency. Knowing to draw a line to stop wanting and getting along with what we have is what real material seeking is, since everything boils down to material being. And that is the nucleus of the so-called Indian way of living. As for cows on the roads... why don't we stop to move them aside or why don't we even stop in the middle of this mad-rush to pick squashed papers or other like garbages to clean up. Easy to send the index fingers extended outwards. Easy to justify saying we are a generation in hurry to get things for ourselves and shout to others about the need to be concerned.
Dear (sir) KK,
I would like to clarify on that rather vague statement I'd made: when I meant 'parochial interests' I was not accusing anyone, but merely pointing out something matter-of-fact. Also, matter-of-fact is that there are people who are concerned in every sphere of life save that they are few and far in between.
Abhinav,
Time for an update one feels... lol
Divya Nair,
You're welcome!
seriously... this discussion is now starting to go above my head.. wondering what you guys are talking about. will update!
Abhinav
For someone who did not want to get into this discussion, you sure have stirred up quite a storm.
Accusation of hypocrisy
------------------------
I think it is unrealistic to ask me to be as exercised about starvation in Ethiopia as I would be about farmers in Orissa. We can either have a discussion on reservation and its merits or about why a whole bunch of people are vocal about it. To try and embarrass the protester, by accusing them of only shouting when it matters to them or their friends, is to avoid the debate on reservation.
Something (the only thing?)in favor of reservation
---------------------------------
I have always believed that TN did not go the Bihar or the UP way but has some semblance of law and order because reservation gave hope and prosperity to many of the marginalized classes. Maybe we should look at it as enlightened self interest to provide some handicap to the marginalized sections. A price we all pay to prevent a revolution (maybe contrary to what you said, it is good politics after all, get votes from the poor, money from the rich and promise to protect one from the other)
Against reservation
-------------------
If we want more than good politics, let us try and get to the root of the problem. Children from marginal sections of society study in awful municipal schools and have parents who cannot help them with their books. and therefore do not get god grades. I rarely hear of a poor Brahmin sending his daughter to a municipal school. My mother, the daughter of a poor Brahmin, studied in one such school but it is more the exception than the rule.
If we had a more accountable school system, if we did not have reservation in selection of teachers, maybe we will have better students and no need for reservation in college in the next 15 years.
Kendriya Vidyalayas are great schools. Why can't we have them take over and run the municipal schools?
Where is the money for all this, you ask? Apparently only 80,000 Indians admit to earning more than Rs.10,00,000 a year when there are in reality 5,000,000 Indians earning this kind of money. If these tax evaders were taken to task, we will collect more than Rs.200,000 crores. I think that should be adequate in the short run for this purpose.
Secondly we need to understand wealth is not stagnant. It is not a zero sum game where some gain and others lose. Wealth can and always has been created using knowledge. So if there were no reservation and the brighter, more interested students did get the admission and the jobs, will they not create more wealth for all of us to share than if there were reservation and the less bright ones got in?
Wealth has first got to be created before it can be shared and increased reservation may slow down wealth creation.
-Sridhar
Sridhar
couldn't agree better with you. Only trouble...in the KV suggestion is... it would end up the other way. The corporation (now that you have suggested KV is good) would look into it as a profit exercise use of branding and try and have some favourite ministers tender KVs maintenance! This is the country we live in. More than people actually wanting reservation to be stepped up or go away, inside hands instigating some people to go on dharna and rasta roko and self-immolation are the ones who are keen on this. The profiteers, the emotional hawkers to manipulate situations to keep themselves safe
Abhinav
it the issue seems to be going out of topic or digressive too much it is because when you start something as sensitive as this rolling, people are bound to look into and analyse the fall outs and the spin offs of the lowdown.
sridhar,
welcome to my blog!
"To try and embarrass the protester, by accusing them of only shouting when it matters to them or their friends, is to avoid the debate on reservation."
But i never denied that i am avoiding the debate on reservation! i made it quite clear, i think, that i'm confused about reservation, and this is the issue that i am looking at.
subsequently i got drawn into the debate, true, but what the hell.
you also say that wealth creation is a solution... sure, but you're assuming that the wealth would trickle down effectively, making an equitable, profitable society. i'm not sure i agree with that. as an IT person, i'm sure you'll agree that while the fabulous wealth creation that IT has brought this country is slowly permeating to tier II cities. But how long will it take to actually stabilise in these cities? When will it stabilise and when will per capita incomes in those cities ever reach the level of the metros? And then what about tier III cities?
I think the concept of wealth creation as a solution is just not viable, as amartya sen argued so beautifully.
kk,
you're right, and i'm not saying that i dont like the fact that such arguments are flying back and forth. i'm just a little surprised at how heated the discussion has become, and surprised and delighted that people have started arguing with each other ignoring me in the bargain! its quite a novel experience, to set a ball rolling and stand back and watch it go.
Abhinav,
Lot of that happens in Manasi's blog... She sets the ball rolling as it were and prefers to stand as a spectator! Well... it's courtesy that I know a lot of my blog pals... And I have nothing new to add on R factor. Just waiting for the next debate. Cheers!
Abhinav
1. The trickle down does happen even if it is slower than we would all like it to be. am only asking reservation to be removed in 15 years, not imm.
John Kenneth Galbraith once said that if we distribute the wealth in the world equally between all the people, in 24 hours it will most probably come back to the same people who were wealthy in the first place. I may not concur with the 24 hours bit but yes, there will be large disparities in wealth and income quite soon.
2. "The weath of Cities" by John Norquist is also an interesting read. My ideas lack the theoretical rigour to challenge Amartya Sen but that cannot be taken to mean that Amartya sen is right and am wrong.It only means I need to prove it, maybe one day I will. and there are a lot of people who do not lack theoreticsal rigour but who disagree with Amartya Sen. (I like his daughter though :-))
KK
Maybe you are right about how the whole thing will be implemented. Someone suggested that we should give food and education coupons to the poor and they can use this to enroll themselves in good schools of their choice. Might be better than the government running schools. However, in villages we might not have a choice but to let the governement and maybe the panchayats play a role. Finally we all get the kind of government we deserve.
Over and Out!
-Sridhar
srini,
sounds good.. i have another blog in mind, just need a bit of spare time, and a bit of inclination... will update.
sridhar,
"My ideas lack the theoretical rigour... it only means I need to prove it" etc. i thought that was a SUPERB point, cos im frequently confronted with the problem, but could never put my finger on it!
just the other day someone was proving to me that US has every right to have a stranglehold on the Middle East, and i just couldnt argue with him becuase i didnt understand any of the theory he was spewing. but instinctively, i knew he was wrong.
so if thats yr saying the same about amartya sen, fair enough. i wont argue with that.
Abhinav,
There I wanted to stop and you have started me off again :-) Lots of people put up in the US - melting pot or whatever they call it - think they can have a strangehold over the entire world. I did a paper on hegemony researching net sources recently and the title of my article was "Hegemony and Hypocrisy"- the American Way. As you say they come up with such jargon - we do not even know if it's correct, I mean the jargon for the stance is hardly ever correct - that we hardly ever catch onto and so they think they can leave us in the hunt. Interesting point, I am with you.
on a bright sunny day, someone met someone subway... er, i mean someway
this blog is really turning out to be a nice illustration of the title of amartya sen's last book! i have enjoyed the debate so far. cheers!
la la la la..i love controversies :) but i think it's time for a new post
srini,
three cheers to that man.
rini,
very smart... but hey, maybe we'll run into each other in a subway one of these days huh.. u never know.
abhorigine,
i wonder if everybody else, like me, is racking their brains to remember what amartya sen's last book was called.. anyways, as a host to the debate, i thank you on behalf of everyone :)
And may I wind up this post before Abhu moves on to new post by quoting C.P.Snow who said government is a question of "the might of the right over the right of the might" while adding that India has proved the corollary to that is the only reality?
Come on Abhinav, you know it's The Argumentative Indian!
kk,
another brain scrambler! i'm still trying to figure out what it means...
abhorigine,
ah.. er.. i knew that, i was just.. er.. testing you.
ahhh that line doesn't work here.
Abhorigine... read the article by Prof Varman on reservation that you had posted. I don't quite get his point. If he says that some kind of reservation already exists, (that is, only a privileged few have access to quality education), then surely, reservation on an economic basis is the way to go. Why doesn't he touch upon that?
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Its the open category but economically backward segment which suffers the most. I completed my schooling just because my teachers user to pay my school fee and later got a scholarship from the state government. No such luck in college.
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