Tuesday, April 04, 2006

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

- W B Yeats

The poem always gives me cold chills down my spine... I remember reading it on the bus, with one hand on the stand to steady myself, and the other holding a yellowing book, squinting in the insane heat to somehow read the words, and it just struck me that here was one of the most beautiful, terrifying bits of literature i've read.
What I'm going to do is attempt a critique, an impressionistic critique, because a) i honestly believe that's the most valid form of criticism in poetry, and b) it's more convenient.

First of all, Yeats lived and wrote most of his poetry in the first half of the twentieth century, which i think is important because the world was either at war, or trapped between the two wars. He died in 1939, which in some ways is a blessing, he missed the worst parts of WW2. Some people say that a work of art is independent of the writer, (Barthes' 'suspended meaning'), but what is really cool about this poem is - it serves as a prelude, a harbinger of WW2, the war itself is the second coming in a limited sense.

Anyways here goes - the first two lines have both philosophy and religion in them. 'Turning and turning in a widening gyre' could well represent Yeats' somewhat cynical philosophy that humanity moves in circles, learning nothing from past experiences till it hits the eye of storm and everything is purged. But what is particularly disturbing is that 'the falcon cannot hear the falconer' - that is, man has forgotten God.

But what's really cool is that there seems to be a deeper meaning in there. Why, of all things, does Yeats choose to use the image of a falconer and a falcon - the falcon is a bird of prey, and the falconer sends the bird to destroy - God, the cruel destroyer? I think that's the implication, and it could have something to do with the lines in the Old Testament was it? where God tells man to tame the Earth - and Yeats holds this process of taming the Earth up to light.

So the first two lines set the mood for the poem - "Things fall apart", which later became the title of Chinua Achebe's disturbing novel about how the coming of the white missionaries destroyed the already somewhat degenerate lives of the African tribes. "the centre cannot hold, mere anarchy is loosed upon the world''... the way those lines just flow like honey! And a little later - the best lack all convictions while the worst are full of passionate intensity. Talking, probably about the Allied forces that didn't really move until they needed to, and the Nazis on the other side. But I don't suppose we'll ever understand the power of the words 'the worst are full of passionate intensity' unless we lived through times like that.

But still, I don't think the poem takes off til the second stanza. 'Surely some revelation is at hand, surely the second coming is at hand' is so unexpected, it leaps up and bites you in the face - I don't think i need to talk much about the second coming of the son of God, i'm sure people are familiar with that... And then, here's the delicate touch - the poet is able to convey the instantness, the spontaneity of his thought... How sometimes some words or phrases just suddenly conjure up an inexplicable image in your head that lasts a fleeting second - as soon as he thinks of the words 'the second coming', an image troubles his sight, before the darkness falls again. And that fleeting thought - he conveys it with the most brilliantly painted strokes -
"A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun" could there be a better, simpler, simile?
"Is moving its slow thighs," effortlessly conveying a sense of size, immense magnitude
"while all about it/ Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds." you can almost hear those birds screeching when you read that line

And still, I think the best lines are to come. After the mention of the rocking cradle, and the first sacrifice that Christ made, comes - "And what rough beast, it's hour come at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
I really don't think I should say anything about that line. Would just taint it.

But here's the thing. The poem is only about one moment, one thought... but how does he encompass an entire philosophy, a whole barrage of things for the reader to think about - and how does he do it all so succintly, with such economy of phrase? I don't know, I really don't - he's written so many beautiful poems - 'Leda and the swan', 'Sailing to Byzantium', and some which i personally thought were pretty rubbish, 'Prayer for my Daughter', an epitome of patriarchal male chauvenistic values... but for me, the Second Coming stands out - i may not be qualified to say anything about poetry, or about literature in general, but fucking hell, can this guy write poetry or what?!

48 comments:

backbencher said...

Boy, are you in the wrong vocation? You can really write, and you can really move, except that I don't care too much for the use of expletives, in one who can express himself so ppowerfully without their aid. bravo!

Abhinav said...

thanks... it's just that, when you're in a moment, when you're a little carried away, the four letter words just come naturally.
it wasn't planned for effect or anything. but anyways, thanks... maybe i am in the wrong career after all!

rini said...

whoa! thats some good writing,very precise.as for the poem and your analysis i enjoyed it, loved the bit about it being essentially about a single moment..,not a big fan of yeats but this one sure is good he seems to have created a collage of thoughts out of a single idea and given it a beautiful poetic expression..man i feel like a bloody critic myself..neway good work keep posting will visit!!..(ps:its not a threat :)

eternal flunky said...

i think its really important to refer to what others have said about a poem before putting down your own interpretations. i agree that all in all your first impressions matter... cos a lot about poetry is about those things that u feel which language can only express when really fucked around with. however, especially when dealing with poetry from another era, its important to go into history and the things that may have triggered out particular usages, because, without understanding them, the poem's just a bunch of words put together with no point of reference.
there seems to be a whole lot of side references in this poem which u ought to outline in your essay, cos otherwise the poem doesn't become clearer to me, as someone who's reading your essay to learn more about the poem.
if i got what the poem's talking about, the coming of complete chaos that will totally consume everything we/civilization/man/existence has stood for/with, then i think jack keroueac(spl?) caught it better in this bit in "on the road", where he's talking about the giant snake that will rise from beneath and end all. "the end", by jim morrisson, is i think, has borrowed a lotta ideas from that idea of keroueac's.

Abhinav said...

rini,
thanks! so nice to have people read my post.. and please don't worry about adding your critical comments! -eternal flunky sure hasn't lol - i would be very interested.
and i'm glad you do like yeats... do read leda and the swan it's soooo gorgeous, and sailing to byzantium, and even byzantium, (they're seperate poems, or maybe i don't need to explain that?) for the sheer imagery.
but this one is the best, in my opinion!

Abhinav said...

eternal flunky,
point taken, buddy... it makes sense to put down other people's interpretations first. there are many schools of thought when it comes to criticism - one, as i mentioned, blvs that the poet is simply a vehicle and the poem comes from some higher source, a muse if you will - which means that neither the poet nor his background is important.
the moralistic school believes that its not important what sensation the poem gives you, rather how powerful the message is - basically what is important is what the poet is trying to say, not why he is saying it, nor how is he saying it.
i chose the impressionistic school of criticism for this essay mostly out of laziness i admit, but i also think its a great way to analyse poetry, just enjoy it, feel it, and taste it, without worrying about the other details. but i agree with you, it does have drawbacks.
but i disagree with you about the point of reference. there is no such thing as there being NO point of reference. if i completely ignore the poet and his background, then the point of reference becomes the present, when the reader is reading it.
as for the side references - i think i mentioned a couple from the Bible, and some from the poet's immediate situation - WW2. if you're referring to spiritus mundi, its a latin term that means just that - spirit. i think thats all it is, or maybe yeats is refering to a particular book or piece of art of that name, i don't know. maybe i should have researched that better.
haven't read kerouac's (i think it is) 'on the road'... not suprised to hear he influenced morrison tho. another beat poet/rock music connection is allen ginsberg with bob dylan. you should check that out if u get the chance!

eyefry said...

I agree with you about the impressionistic approach. I've always thought - especially when it comes to poetry - that a ruthless deconstruction defeats the very initial purpose of the text, whereas an impressionistic assessment conveys much more succintly what was most likely going through the poet's head. Beyond a point, over-specific interpretations start losing hold of the essence of the poem, carried away as it gets by probable connotations and denotations. Critical analysis may be intellectually stimulating to the critic - in that it passes the time and inflates the ego - but practically, it is a redundant, self-defeating exercise. It is so much more enjoyable just to taste the words, as you say, and live in the moment of the poem. Relegating anything to one particular way of seeing is as good as destroying its spirit.

Manasi Subramaniam said...

Finally doing our bit of research, now are we? :-) Sorry. Couldn't resist that. Anyway, good one. I had The Second Coming on my syllabus. But somehow, I've always preferred A Prayer for my Daughter, Adam's Curse, When You are Old, Solomon and the Witch... even Easter 1916 and Byzantium and Return to Byzantium. Not this...

eternal flunky said...

honestly, i was a little hashed when i came and commented, and had just dreared over some frikkkkin psycho essay by dr.johnson for my exams and felt damn frustrated.... but as a result of both, i said what i felt, regardless. and now there's discussion. isnt that a nice thing?

"Defenseless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame."

thats one of my favourite pieces of poetry, from '1st september..' -auden.
anyway, i totally agree about too much deconstruction screwing up the poem. in fact when i wrote that freaky prufrock essay, the more i tried to go deaper and represent what i understood in my own words, the more the poem started to lose meaning to me. i even complained to sumi about it, and she was like "sad, but true.. cos this is what they expect" .... so i was telling her that at this rate a critic ought to write the criticism in better words than the poet himself, if he wants to "open the poem up". i get what u guys are saying. i totally do. in fact the only reason why i posted that essay on a part of prufrock was because a) i had nothing else to post, and b)cos i'd spent so much fruitless effort on it in school, i didnt want to see the end of it- i say fruitless because i clearly remember enjoying prufrock much more before attempting to analyze it. but then again, the power of eliot was that no matter how hard i tried to hammer his genius of a work into fragments, it still retained its mystery till the very end. the only real result of the whole exercize was that i went raving mad. the other side is, that having passed all that gas and forgotten it, when i take the poem up now, it somewhere seems to communicate more than it could have before i went into it.
about impressionistic criticism as you call it, i'v no clue bout it.. but dont say i ought not to talk without reading up, gime a chance... i'v always been too frikkin dependent on standard views... i guess i ought to break out of it. but the reason i'v done that is cos i realise that when you read a poem its so damn easy to get carried away into your own sweet perception, which may perhaps be blocking a whole different vision that could'v been infinitely more .... im running out of words... that might'v touched you more. but i guess thats where the 'ironic points of light' come in huh? one tends to get too bookish when the only sources of insight are what he's read. but thats a good reason to follow up on your idea to start this whole literature discussion thing on the blogs.... i finally get to some kind of a point. sincere apologies for bombing your comments page thus.

Abhinav said...

eyefry,
you've said it! its just an opinion of mine, that deconstruction kind of defeats the purpose of poetry, which is essentially to please.
i think you hit upon something there about criticism pandering to the ego. i think post-deconstruction, the critic suddenly started to feel this sense of power, that he or she can toy around with the text and find any meaning if you dig deep enough. it becomes more about the critic, and less about the poem... i'm not sure i like the trend.
and don't u just love the poem?

Abhinav said...

return to byzantium? is that another poem... cos if it is, i would really want to read it!
i think the poems you mentioned are more in the classical school of poetry - indeed, yeats is a classicist -byzantium for example, carefully constructed images, fabulously structured... a couple of images, like the embittered moon as a symbol of the cycle of life - the waxing and waning - and the gong-tormented sea, as a symbol of both the transition from the world of life and the world of dead, really haunted me when i first read the poem.
but for me, second coming is a lot harder to classify, is it in the romantic school, or the classical school? hard to point out - and critics agree that that's the reason for shakespeare's genius, very hard to pinpoint which school he leans towards - and for me, the best literature strikes that balance.

Abhinav said...

eternal flunky,
first of all, thanks! that's a gorgeous bit of poetry, now i have something to go read up.
as for the rest - i do think its important to read up on criticism on a poem - i would never have figured out the 'turning and turning in a widening gyre' otherwise... but then you can use that criticism to form your own views, right? so i do agree that reading up on other people's views is very very important, but then, when you're attempting a critique, you shouldn't have to spout them verbatim.
of course, this isn't what examiners expect, but then who gives a shit really.

Abhinav said...

and hey, eternal flunky, don't be so apologetic man!
and btw, which one of dr johnson's? i always enjoyed his essays, because his views are so openly prejudiced, makes for interesting reaidng.
plus, he's the guy who brought paradise lost into prominence, we may never have had it otherwise! whether that's a good thing or not, i leave it to you to decide...

eternal flunky said...

i had to do... have to do.... umm... am supposed to... ok... i should have done the preface to shakespear by now- exams start this monday. anyway, i dont give a shit bout the examiner.... always tried to screw around most with the answers in exams... gives me some kinda pleasure. in 'preface..', this guy praises shakespeare like some kind of god... thats the first 35 paras or so.. he goes to the length of defending shakey from every critic that's ever dared say anything negative about him. and then he gets to the weaknesses of shakespeare, and the neo-classicist in him goes in full gear. shit, i always wanted to use terms like that.. the lil kicks of ba literature... hehe.
anyway, i was thinking (pls, no jokes), and its kinda interesting what u seem to be saying... where the interpretation can be anything. its like finally its the art that matters more than anything else... but then there's no more contact btw the artist and what he's made before is there? i dont know therefore i ask. its like the baby creeps out of the womb and gets on his way before any mama's love can take place. like the salt water gators (if i remember my willard price) that are ready for life as soon as birth. they can go fend for themselves and find their own fish and stuff. hmm...

Jan said...

"The poem always gives me cold chills down my spine..." Totally agree! And... whoa! Your posts have the longest comments I've seen around! Guess that says a lot about your writing. And yes, that IS a compliment, people never seem to get it when I give them one! :D

Peace...

Masquerade - Chennai said...

Add to more to your list... very different Yeats... Lapis Lazuli and The Long-Legged Fly. If anyone can write under 20 lines and such deep philosophy over a little fly that stands frozen in thought it is Yeats.

Abhinav said...

eternal flunky,
johnson's stuff is boring (what do you expect, he's a neo-classicist as you say) but there are some interesting things there, especially when he talks about shakespeare's lack of morality - he says that the vicious characters should be punished, and the virtuous rewarded, and sh. fails to do that - examples ophelia, cordelia, ton of them. suffer despite being innately good people. How typical of a classicist!
Anyways, i had wanted to say something else to your earlier comment but it slipped my mind - auden. did you know he wrote a poem for yeats when he died? it sounds awkward in parts, and has one or two jarring lines, but the emotion is so stunning, i think you may want to read it... here's the latter half:

The stars are not wanted now; put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun,
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods;
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

i thought it was pretty corny, but then of all places, in four weddings and a funeral, john hannah does a fab recitation of it, and boy did it sound powerful. maybe poetry is meant to be heard rather than read after all.

Abhinav said...

jan,
thanks for the compliment (?) you're a literature student too aren't you?
and hey, from my end, it's very very exciting to talk about literature again! which would explain the looooooong comments... it's barely been a year since my course got over, and i already miss it like i can't fuckin explain...

Abhinav said...

masquerade chennai,
but which one are you????
and god bless google! i picked up both the poems you mentioned, hadn't read either of them, and they are simply amazing especially long legged fly... i somehow was expecting some nature-type poem... heh... and boy did it just give me a shock! the man is...
i totally understand what it must have been like for people like auden when he died.

Jan said...

Hey abhinav, it's great to read all the things being discussed. I'd almost forgotten the beauty of poetry because I didn't enjoy my poetry paper this sem at all! Reading these comments has reminded me what poetry is all about--as you said, not dissection and analysis but pure enjoyment :D

Thanks...

Abhinav said...

wow, jan that's quite the nicest thing anyone has said.. to be honest, i did not expect such a response either, it's so great to be able to talk to people who have such love for poetry - and great to hear such diverse opinions... you should add yours too!

eyefry said...

It seems to work that way for any art-form. Criticism is one thing, name-calling and bullshitting quite another. But, as I overheard someone saying recently, critics need their bread and butter too...

And yes, sure I do. Nice pome, as William would say. I'm not particularly qualified to say much more :P

Abhinav said...

eyefry,
you should do what i do - say i'm not qualified to say something and then say it anyway!
and hey yr talking about richmal crompton's william right? man those books are so delightful... i never get tired of them.

Krishna Kumar said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Krishna Kumar said...

abhu...there's only one user allowed to post under masquerade - chennai. and besides your family, how many people in theatre circle calls you abhu unlike the more not so uncommon abhi!
k

ps: there were typos in that, nothing much. hence deleted.

Abhinav said...

just today i had someone call me abhu, and someone else say 'isnt that aladdin's monkey?' and all present burst into laughter... :(

anyways im quite kicked that you've commented on my blog, you with all your experience in theatre... thanks! and for the good recommendations (i can never spell that word rite) too... in the midst of reports on human resource development and industrial exhibitions, it was a lovely interlude to read up those poems!

Krishna Kumar said...

Hahaha... Experience and I... well, no one is experienced or enough... we are all learning all the time. And however much experienced one gets doing theatre in chennai, we still keep doing after-my-heart theatre than 'in yer face'. Anyway... try a couple of other poems... Preludes by T.S.Eliot and Nocturne of Remembered Spring by Conrad Aiken. Beautiful for the sheer pleasure of reading those words!

f2fcyberqueen said...

Abhinav,

Thought I might add that "spiritus mundi" is a very Jungian notion: Jung's notion of the collective unconscious... When it comes to issues of periodization/periodicity--a little pompous scholarspeak for your reading pleasure!--Yeats also signals the advent of modernism. But time past and time present are both present in time future, right?:) So the classical and the romantic both emerge as the modern in one vivid image: the beast slouching towards Bethlehem...

f2fcyberqueen said...

Abhinav,

Thought I might add that "spiritus mundi" is a very Jungian notion: Jung's notion of the collective unconscious... When it comes to issues of periodization/periodicity--a little pompous scholarspeak for your reading pleasure!--Yeats also signals the advent of modernism. But time past and time present are both present in time future, right?:) So the classical and the romantic both emerge as the modern in one vivid image: the beast slouching towards Bethlehem...

Abhinav said...

kk,
preludes has always been my favourite eliot poem... especially loved the image of the city waking up to the smell of stale beer... soemthing i am somewhat familiar with!
no but in all honesty, in my BA days, i used to have night overs at friends and when you wake up in the morning with the feeling that you've wasted another day and are going to waste another... i sort of connected with the poem at the time cos of that.
will check out the other poem tho.

Abhinav said...

f2f,
ahhhh was wondering where you went! was a-waiting in breathless anticipation for your comment on this one!
thanx tho, that's a really cool piece of info which adds a totally new dimension to the poem.
which kind of proves eternal flunky's point on researching a subject before putting down your views!

f2fcyberqueen said...

Abhinav,

I love Yeats's imagistic precision; it's the technique that locates him as a modernist. It's great to encounter a modernist who isn't as cryptic as Eliot or as pedantic as Pound (though I must say I do love the former). Anyway, here's a poem by Marge Piercy that I think fits the occasion. I'll leave others to the analysis, and the research!

For the young who want to

Talent is what they say
you have after the novel
is published and favorably
reviewed. Beforehand what
you have is a tedious
delusion, a hobby like knitting.

Work is what you have done
after the play is produced
and the audience claps.
Before that friends keep asking
when you are planning to go
out and get a job.

Genius is what they know you
had after the third volume
of remarkable poems. Earlier
they accuse you of withdrawing,
ask why you don't have a baby,
call you a bum.

The reason people want M.F.A.'s,
take workshops with fancy names
when all you can really
learn is a few techniques,
typing instructions and some-
body else's mannerisms


is that every artist lacks
a license to hang on the wall
like your optician, your vet
proving you may be a clumsy sadist
whose fillings fall into the stew
but you're certified a dentist.

The real writer is one
who really writes. Talent
is an invention like phlogiston
after the fact of fire.
Work is its own cure. You have to
like it better than being loved.

--Marge Piercy

Abhinav said...

oh wow... that's such an honest bit of verse, and it really hits home too, like - oh that's right, i know what she means! type of thing...

and i just couldn't take Pound after a point, really. and though i'm not a great fan of carefuly constructed images a la eliot, some of his poetry simply transcends all that, doesn't it?

shrutified said...

see! i have been here! and my god, the people on here leave quite long comments! :)

Abhinav said...

awww so sweet of you shruti! i am very honored... i'm surprised you actually came after the comment I left on YOUR blog... i'll try and be nicer from now on ok, girl?

kyra said...

ok..now why the hell couldn't you make this post BEFORE my elective english board exam?? it would've made my work a loottt easier. i tell you, last minute searching for notes all over the stupid Net and calling up a dozen friends for their stupider interpretations was a hell lot of work. come to think of it, i only got hooked on to blogger after the exams. so well, you're not to blame. sorry you must think i'm mad...i'd put down to early morning drowsiness.

Krishna Kumar said...

Ok, we shall refrain from calling you a monkey...

Abhinav,

You won't believe, about a couple of years ago, I did a bit of experimenting with I A Richardsian Practical Criticism with a bunch of XIstd school kids when invited to do a guest lecture on poetry and visual imagery in theatre. The poem I chose was TSE's Preludes. I gave them the piece with no author, no title... no period, typical IAR Prac Crit. You won't believe the responses. It went from "hey that's cool stuff maan" to "sounds sooo like Linkin' Park". The best part was that the teacher who had invited me was having trouble trying to get Eliot across to the students. They were doing Four Quartets. After I said the poem was Preludes by TSE, they went back to Four Quartets with a different interest level. I guess that's TSE for you. Very relevant as ever at every wavelength and level!

Abhinav said...

kyra my dear,
LOL.. sorry man, but this sort of thing used to happen to me all the time so i totally empathise... standing in front of the xerox machine for hours the day before the exam, and then finding that there IS a copy of the book at home, for example.
plus, i don't really think my criticism is authentic enough to quote, but hey, thats quite a compliment and i will quietly gobble it up!

Abhinav said...

kk,
that is quite the coolest story i've heard about literature! eliot and linkin park?
i am even more kicked cos i was humming their 'every step that i take is another mistake to youuuuuuuu' in my head when i read your comment.
but that is TRULY cool. and i envy you very much! i want to teach school kids about poetry too! *sigh* have i indeed chosen the wrong profession?

Krishna Kumar said...

Believe me Abhi... trying to teach school kids is the biggest mistake of my life. I don't approach it as teaching. You treat them fair and square giving credence to their existence as they are and try to get to their level they start mistreating you like you're supposed to get friendly with them only when they want to... and actually I guess - even if they hate their teachers - they understand only that language. Sometimes it's not worth it to try being one of the Dead Poet's Society types. They can't make decisions and they don't know where their life is going, but too much attitude that is unnecessary, fighting for wrong privileges. But that school bunch was fun, I tell you. Such things make life memorable. Let's start a special school for poetry someday where ppl visit like they visit guitar schools and piano classes and glass painting sessions! Hmmmph, I'll never mend... a feckin' dreamer!

Abhinav said...

that's really strange... i always thought i would rather teach school kids than college students... but i guess thats true tho, that they've got plenty of attitude without really knowing whats going on... i suppose one must be tolerant of it, since its a phase we all go thro, but thats a bit harder when youre interacting with them everyday i guess!

kyra said...

you're a lit graduate? cool
u dont mind if i ask you a few questions right? the thing is i'm just out of school (waiting for the blessed board marks to come out). now i know that i wanna do english honours in college coz i really love the subject but whenever someone asks me what i'd like to do after that, i totally blank out. my counsellor says i could work in an embassy. hello? for that don't i need to take a course in another language? *rolls eyes*
journalism..erm im not sure whether i have the communication skills for that.
i have no clue about the other career options. do you think its too early to decide?
oh god i'm sure you must be thinkin i'm some weirdo.
thanks for replyin to the comment though.
bye

Abhinav said...

hey kyra,
first of all, im not able to comment on your blog, it goes off to yahoo mail, which is very annoying.
anyways - i'm flattered that u want my advice, but im not sure i'm the right person to give it. i chose english and decided im going to do what i love, and let me career take care of itself, and i dont regret the decision.
as for journalism, communication is something you learn on the job. your base in english needs to be good, that's all u need to start with. anyways, my email address is abhinavvr@gmail.com, mail me sometime, and i'll help u however i can - doing over comments is slightly wierd!

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